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柏贝勒 - Bi Manju niyalma inu 祖源分析

关于东北人中较多纳西族/彝族成分的探究

我其实是从Wegene给的报告中第一次接触到“纳西族”这么一个族群的。我们家是世居关外的东北人，口述历史可以一直追溯到道光年间，河北对我们家来说都算南方，所以对于10%纳西族/彝族的结果比较惊奇。之后又在讨论区里问了问，发现好多东北人，有满有汉，都很惊奇测出了较高的纳西族/彝族成分。有的人说是传说中的“小云南”，查了以后觉得不是很有说服力。如果清初真的有云南汉人被从山东调到东北，那么山东应该更多人有很高的纳西族/彝族成分，而不应该是在东北人中高发。Google Scholar搜了一圈，关于纳西人基因的论文真的太少了。只找到了一篇：遗传学报，22(4): 252-257, 1995的《纳西族和普米族的红细胞血型分布》，作者肖春杰，郝露萍等。链接在本帖末。打不开Google链接的对不住了，未经作者同意我不能粘贴出来全文。文章的结论我会粘贴出来，结论是纳西人基因符合历史记录，是阿尔泰青海甘肃一代的古羌人后代。“先和满族和黑龙江汉族的祖先相聚，之后再和回族、蒙古族、彝族等其他北方人群或起源于北方的人群相聚，最后才与广东汉族、壮族、德昂族、景颇族、傣族、阿昌族等南方民族聚在一起。这表明纳西族和普米族具有北方民族的特点，其遗传结构与景颇族、德昂族、阿昌族、傣族、壮族和广东汉族等的差异较大，而与北方的回族、满族、彝族、蒙古族和黑龙江汉族的差异较小，亲缘关系较近。”

所以各位东北的朋友们，如果你也测出较高的纳西族/彝族成分，只能说明我们都有当年祖先们和古羌人同相聚时通婚共享来的古羌人基因，而并不一定是说你的祖上有云南人。就像东北人很多都有百分之十多的日本/韩国成分，并不表示你祖上就有日本人一个道理。就好比说，如果一个现代雅库特人和西班牙人生了孩子，孩子去测基因的结果很有可能会和很多南美人和北美印第安人和白人混血的后代是高度相似的；而这个孩子的祖先并没有南美人。只是组成成分hit a match了。

当然，这篇论文年代久远，又缺乏同题目的peer comparison。欢迎有其他信息来源的朋友讨论。But please keep it civilized.

论文链接如下：
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiolpyY7qrVAhXJKiYKHeEcD10QFghBMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jgenetgenomics.org%2FCN%2Farticle%2FdownloadArticleFile.do%3FattachType%3DPDF%26id%3D18541&usg=AFQjCNGZlxSBBg2IPkuKW0ynuYFd0bsRaA

2020年补充：
附上我的报告。东北土著，满洲整黄旗。祖籍叶赫，海西女真。还真符合海西女真源于蒙古的事儿。

2017-08-01 • IP属地美国

按热门排序按默认排序

50 个回复

hmiaosys

[ 由于内容不当, 此内容已被隐藏 ]

wanhuatong

我个人感觉wegene里东北人的纳西/彝族成分可以无视,主要原因在于wegene里的北方汉族样本主要来自华北地区，东北人群明显与华北地区有基因差异，但是这种差异性并不是由于通古斯人混入带来的，因为东北人的通古斯成分较少，整体上反而比一些华北人还南，在这种情况下，wegene错误的给东北人判定成了西南人群的影响，即误认为东北人比华北人基因还南是西南少民的影响，尚不清楚是何种原因造成东北人群这种基因结构的原因，但把这样的情况和纳西/彝联系起来是不对的。论文连接 http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/07/13/162982

赞同来自: 蓝星旗、柏贝勒、[已注销] 、kyinblood

(4)

2017-08-02 • IP属地中国 • 评论 (16)

woodyxjtu

小云南是指小云南行营，清代满洲平定吴三桂叛乱，旗人在云南驻过一段时间，后来都得到很多封赏，主要是满洲的土地。在云南驻兵的期间可能有一些人娶了当地女子，所以回家的时候，小云南行营应该人丁扩大很多，包含了很多云南土著。我父系得到的地契在吉林辉南，大约在6代前有傣族人加入，4代前有纳西族加入，从这个来看，应该在辉南有很多云南血统的人，但因为在东北生活数代，已经在文化上成为东北人。

另一种说法是小云南在山东，但那只是一种没有验证的说法，既然现在有了基因作为证据，我认为前一种说法的真实性更加充分。

我云南血统加一起10%左右，父母都来自满族家庭，但户口本上被归为汉。请参考。

赞同来自: 柏贝勒、starvich 、jingmodemao 、旅行者177177

(4)

2017-12-11 • IP属地深圳 • 评论 (3)

惰性元素2019

就是炎帝后裔的基因，跟西南的关系不大。从山东到甘肃，从东北到安徽，都挺高的。尤其是当年周王朝分封自家亲戚的地方，鲁西南，陕西，洛阳附近，古燕地。东北纳西彝族高的，说明有这些地方人的基因。

赞同来自: fluka2011 、AD964466824 、Auir66

(3)

2020-05-18 • IP属地中国 • 评论 (1) • 发自微基因APP

MrTiung

目前看过两篇常染的文章，东北人似乎比关内的北方人要偏南一点，但同时也偏东一点，但是纳西族应该是偏西

drizzle

山东半岛的人多数来自小云南，已经有专著研究这个。东北人有近一半的山东半岛血统，所以测序出来纳西彝族很正常。

VVJY

说实话小云南这个说法，我认可，但感觉不太充分或是全部原因，你想十几万人撒在好几百万上千万人里头，到了今天不可能有那么大影响的

yiranMOL - ybllyr

基因助手查查不就行了http://mahui.me/gene/

沉默

但是我看到可不光东北有纳西族彝族成分其他很多地方的人都有啊我看很多山东河北人也有纳西族彝族成分啊

沉默

比例似乎也不比东北低

沉默

而且要是古羌人的话西北人群的纳西族彝族血统应该更多啊

wangqiushi

有什么稀罕的，你能保证你家没和除了汉族以外的通婚过？可能是哪个祖先有羌族，藏族，南方基因你保留下来了而已。不过我看这么多目测不管南北方都讨厌南方少数民族基因，喜欢东北亚基因，甚至有因为我说南方汉族基因其实是以马来人种作为蓝本参考的就觉得我在分裂民族，搞笑，东北亚民族确实厉害，出过黄帝，鲜卑，蒙古，满族，七国，秦朝，汉朝，唐朝。但是这个不是说就不承认人家南方百越了，不管如何也是汉族祖先，大家都要公平对待，搞毛线歧视。。非要说南方少数民族有唐朝畬人起义，还是个女领导了，牛逼不。

投篮的CDH4基因

看过各地网友测试数据，我发现并不是东北人较多纳彝，而是各地的人都有7∽10几的纳彝。
小云南之说可以休矣

zhewuptpd

外婆来自山东诸城

aksoifong

老妈的没有纳西彝族不过通古斯更高

含蓄的SDK1基因

{"result":[{"race_desc":"\u4e2d\u534e\u6c11\u65cf","race_en":"chinese_nation","race_probality":"0.927496","area":[{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5317\u65b9\u6c49\u65cf","race_en":"han_northern","race_probality":"0.630068"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u7eb3\u897f\/\u5f5d\u65cf","race_en":"ny","race_probality":"0.197245"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u9ad8\u5c71\u65cf","race_en":"gaoshan","race_probality":"0.056861"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u901a\u53e4\u65af\u65cf\u7fa4","race_en":"tungus","race_probality":"0.022445"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u7572\u65cf","race_en":"she","race_probality":"0.020807"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0002"}]},{"race_desc":"\u4e1c\u5317\u4e9a","race_en":"ne_asian","race_probality":"0.072234","area":[{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u97e9\u56fd","race_en":"korean","race_probality":"0.039709"},{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u65e5\u672c","race_en":"japanese","race_probality":"0.032515"}]},{"race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0004","area":[]}],"case_id":"ANCESTRY","prefix":null,"description":"\u7956\u6e90\u5206\u6790","color":null,"detail_url":"\/report2\/ancestry\/"}

巧了，我也是东北人，这个结果出来我都惊了

aubreychen

{"result":[{"race_desc":"\u4e2d\u534e\u6c11\u65cf","race_en":"chinese_nation","race_probality":"0.919062","area":[{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5357\u65b9\u6c49\u65cf","race_en":"han_southern","race_probality":"0.337742"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5317\u65b9\u6c49\u65cf","race_en":"han_northern","race_probality":"0.258443"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u7eb3\u897f\/\u5f5d\u65cf","race_en":"ny","race_probality":"0.207352"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u8499\u53e4\u8bed\u65cf\u7fa4","race_en":"mongolian","race_probality":"0.102751"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u901a\u53e4\u65af\u65cf\u7fa4","race_en":"tungus","race_probality":"0.012704"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0002"}]},{"race_desc":"\u4e1c\u5317\u4e9a","race_en":"ne_asian","race_probality":"0.080668","area":[{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u65e5\u672c","race_en":"japanese","race_probality":"0.080648"}]},{"race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0004","area":[]}],"case_id":"ANCESTRY","prefix":null,"description":"\u7956\u6e90\u5206\u6790","color":null,"detail_url":"\/report2\/ancestry\/"}

我爸是土著山东
母亲也是土著东北（自述她姥姥那代是满族人）
我也不知道怎么会有南方汉族和纳西族的祖源成分……

柏贝勒 - Bi Manju niyalma inu

蓝姐，山东有不是问题关键是多不多啊另外文章里说的是古羌人和黑龙江汉和满族祖先相聚过，然后分道扬镳的相聚时就互融了吧

wanhuatong

另外一家机构测试的结果。

投篮的15号染色体

楼主咱们的比较像

sunnyone89

北汉34.59%南汉48.79%，纳西彝族9%，族谱上写的是陇西。4代以内都居住在南方。请教一下我这样的成分正常吗？

拉风的HTR2A基因

东北人偏南，难道是靖康之耻的影响，当时金人掳走了大批南宋女子

柏贝勒 - Bi Manju niyalma inu

纳西/彝族祖上是北族，是在西北一代活动的古羌人。纳西彝族比汉族北的一个证据如下：下图为GEDMatch中K7b的Spreadsheet成分，Sorted by Siberian.可以看出纳西/彝族比普通汉族要北。另外纳西彝族和Chinese（默认汉族）之间有一个4%左右的gap。东北人基本就在纳西这上下浮动。我的K7b西伯利亚是22%，几个其他东北满族的朋友也是差不多水平，都是处于东亚人中土族和纳西彝族之间。
有些华北人西伯利亚成分比我们高，但是东的成分（日本）没有我们多。你们可以问问家里老人是不是祖上有北边来的，毕竟清朝时直隶和山东一带都是需要很多驻军的。

FLY2

全中国很多地方都有特别南方人这也不奇怪，东南亚起源o

haster

还真是，东北土著，也检测出了纳西/彝族成分

gugu44

我是山东人，父亲携带N1b2c2, 28%蒙古，14%日本，其它是北方汉族，和东北汉人的基因像吗？
母亲携带7%的纳西/彝族，14%日本人，北方南方汉族都有。
但父母都有2-3%印度血统，这是什么？是因为这部分基因很复杂分析不出来吗？

发财的NEB基因

r1b好多，融合好多白种胡人

投篮的CDH4基因

暮水才

四川人纳西和彝族也多

1411398080zjb - 183

没有啊我就是蒙古满足日本的混血

VVJY

收藏细研

投篮的CDH4基因

为什么这么高比例

投篮的CDH4基因

纳西是藏族吧？？

愤怒的ERBB4基因

首先楼主的标题就有问题,麻烦看看数据,东北纳西族彝族成分哪里高了?

yiranMOL - ybllyr

没看出来哪里高啊，和山东河北差不多

强悍的DLG2基因

围观

lucyfyn

{"result":[{"race_desc":"\u4e2d\u534e\u6c11\u65cf","race_en":"chinese_nation","race_probality":"0.976180","area":[{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5317\u65b9\u6c49\u65cf","race_en":"han_northern","race_probality":"0.602100"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u8499\u53e4\u8bed\u65cf\u7fa4","race_en":"mongolian","race_probality":"0.251512"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u9ad8\u5c71\u65cf","race_en":"gaoshan","race_probality":"0.050399"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u901a\u53e4\u65af\u65cf\u7fa4","race_en":"tungus","race_probality":"0.049448"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u7572\u65cf","race_en":"she","race_probality":"0.020139"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u85cf\u65cf","race_en":"tibetan","race_probality":"0.002522"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0002"}]},{"race_desc":"\u4e1c\u5317\u4e9a","race_en":"ne_asian","race_probality":"0.020442","area":[{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u97e9\u56fd","race_en":"korean","race_probality":"0.020422"}]},{"race_desc":"\u7f8e\u6d32","race_en":"american","race_probality":"0.003137","area":[{"block":"american","race_desc":"\u56e0\u7ebd\u7279\u4eba","race_en":"eskimo","race_probality":"0.003117"}]},{"race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0004","area":[]}],"case_id":"ANCESTRY","prefix":null,"description":"\u7956\u6e90\u5206\u6790","color":null,"detail_url":"\/report2\/ancestry\/"}

东北人彝族成分为零

aksoifong

{"result":[{"race_desc":"\u4e2d\u534e\u6c11\u65cf","race_en":"chinese_nation","race_probality":"0.957893","area":[{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5317\u65b9\u6c49\u65cf","race_en":"han_northern","race_probality":"0.658231"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u8499\u53e4\u8bed\u65cf\u7fa4","race_en":"mongolian","race_probality":"0.222285"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u901a\u53e4\u65af\u65cf\u7fa4","race_en":"tungus","race_probality":"0.046935"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u7eb3\u897f\/\u5f5d\u65cf","race_en":"ny","race_probality":"0.026707"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u7572\u65cf","race_en":"she","race_probality":"0.003665"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0002"}]},{"race_desc":"\u4e1c\u5317\u4e9a","race_en":"ne_asian","race_probality":"0.037133","area":[{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u65e5\u672c","race_en":"japanese","race_probality":"0.019604"},{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u97e9\u56fd","race_en":"korean","race_probality":"0.017519"}]},{"race_desc":"\u7f8e\u6d32","race_en":"american","race_probality":"0.004734","area":[{"block":"american","race_desc":"\u56e0\u7ebd\u7279\u4eba","race_en":"eskimo","race_probality":"0.004714"}]},{"race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0004","area":[]}],"case_id":"ANCESTRY","prefix":null,"description":"\u7956\u6e90\u5206\u6790","color":null,"detail_url":"\/report2\/ancestry\/"}

有一点点纳西和彝族

能喝的TSN基因

{"result":[{"race_desc":"\u4e2d\u534e\u6c11\u65cf","race_en":"chinese_nation","race_probality":"0.937802","area":[{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u8499\u53e4\u8bed\u65cf\u7fa4","race_en":"mongolian","race_probality":"0.389743"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5317\u65b9\u6c49\u65cf","race_en":"han_northern","race_probality":"0.337689"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5357\u65b9\u6c49\u65cf","race_en":"han_southern","race_probality":"0.157694"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u7eb3\u897f\/\u5f5d\u65cf","race_en":"ny","race_probality":"0.052596"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0004"}]},{"race_desc":"\u4e1c\u5317\u4e9a","race_en":"ne_asian","race_probality":"0.061928","area":[{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u65e5\u672c","race_en":"japanese","race_probality":"0.061908"}]},{"race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0003","area":[]}],"case_id":"ANCESTRY","prefix":null,"description":"\u7956\u6e90\u5206\u6790","color":null,"detail_url":"\/report2\/ancestry\/"}

路过

azure001

纳西、彝成分应该跟4000年前青铜时代位于西北的古羌带来的常染遗留有关，南下的是纳西、彝，东进的是炎黄中的炎帝系(Y都是以O2-M117为主)。

投篮的GRID2基因

好有意思

88yiliqi

{"result":[{"race_desc":"\u4e2d\u534e\u6c11\u65cf","race_en":"chinese_nation","race_probality":"0.773705","area":[{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u8499\u53e4\u8bed\u65cf\u7fa4","race_en":"mongolian","race_probality":"0.261026"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u901a\u53e4\u65af\u65cf\u7fa4","race_en":"tungus","race_probality":"0.148933"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5357\u65b9\u6c49\u65cf","race_en":"han_southern","race_probality":"0.141539"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5317\u65b9\u6c49\u65cf","race_en":"han_northern","race_probality":"0.118715"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u7eb3\u897f\/\u5f5d\u65cf","race_en":"ny","race_probality":"0.075868"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0278"}]},{"race_desc":"\u4e1c\u5317\u4e9a","race_en":"ne_asian","race_probality":"0.149378","area":[{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u96c5\u5e93\u7279","race_en":"yakut","race_probality":"0.113611"},{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u65e5\u672c","race_en":"japanese","race_probality":"0.035593"},{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0002"}]},{"race_desc":"\u4e2d\u4e9a","race_en":"central_asian","race_probality":"0.058603","area":[{"block":"central_asian","race_desc":"\u67ef\u5c14\u514b\u5b5c\u65cf","race_en":"kyrgyz","race_probality":"0.058593"},{"block":"central_asian","race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0001"}]},{"race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0184","area":[]}],"case_id":"ANCESTRY","prefix":null,"description":"\u7956\u6e90\u5206\u6790","color":null,"detail_url":"\/report2\/ancestry\/"}

作为内蒙人我也有彝族，傻了

lpiggy319

我妈妈的祖源分析。能说明她妈妈是东北人的可能性比较大吗？她爸爸是山东人，但是她奶奶家里人都是高鼻，深眼，肤色不白，可能和那一点印度有关，爷爷家是汉人。
23andme 测出来是Korean大多数 Japanese 不多

豁达的PRKY基因

不一定是印度的原因，也许是纳西彝。

大气的LUZP2基因

我是岫岩人，镶黄旗老满族~

AD964466824

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山东枣庄人纳西族21.97%

正直的LPP基因

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北京满族…

Daisy周

{"result":[{"race_desc":"\u4e2d\u534e\u6c11\u65cf","race_en":"chinese_nation","race_probality":"0.879301","area":[{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5317\u65b9\u6c49\u65cf","race_en":"han_northern","race_probality":"0.700107"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u7eb3\u897f\/\u5f5d\u65cf","race_en":"ny","race_probality":"0.131791"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u82d7\u7476\u8bed\u65cf\u7fa4","race_en":"miao_yao","race_probality":"0.029012"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u901a\u53e4\u65af\u65cf\u7fa4","race_en":"tungus","race_probality":"0.015733"},{"block":"chinese_nation","race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0028"}]},{"race_desc":"\u4e1c\u5317\u4e9a","race_en":"ne_asian","race_probality":"0.102320","area":[{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u65e5\u672c","race_en":"japanese","race_probality":"0.069699"},{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u97e9\u56fd","race_en":"korean","race_probality":"0.032611"},{"block":"ne_asian","race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0001"}]},{"race_desc":"\u7f8e\u6d32","race_en":"american","race_probality":"0.018140","area":[{"block":"american","race_desc":"\u56e0\u7ebd\u7279\u4eba","race_en":"eskimo","race_probality":"0.014046"},{"block":"american","race_desc":"\u7f8e\u6d32\u571f\u8457","race_en":"pima","race_probality":"0.004084"},{"block":"american","race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0001"}]},{"race_desc":"\u5176\u4ed6","race_en":"other","race_probality":"0.0003","area":[]}],"case_id":"ANCESTRY","prefix":null,"description":"\u7956\u6e90\u5206\u6790","color":null,"detail_url":"\/report2\/ancestry\/"}

同东北人，母亲满族，叶赫。觉得你分析的很有道理~

WeGene_70614C83

满族人怎么没有检测到满族人基因

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柏贝勒

Bi Manju niyalma inu

祖源分析

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关于东北人中较多纳西族/彝族成分的探究

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